Europe’s most dynamic political leader, Emmanuel Macron, pays a state visit to Washington this week. The French president has struck up a surprisingly cordial relationship with President Donald Trump, especially when you consider that Macron has emerged as the West’s most formidable opponent of the kind of populist nationalism Trump channels here.
You are correct, but you don’t know the main reason.
Before I would get in to a discussion on Macron, you would have to convince me you can support the unbiblical position of a pre-tribulation rapture with the bible.
I’m sorry, but it is a pet peeve of mine. I feel like anyone who gets that wrong hasn’t studied the Word well, and more importantly leads others on the false path of escapism.
I would understand if you are not interested in having that discussion.
May our Lord Jesus watch over you and your’s in the troubling days ahead.
You know, I’m beginning to believe you about the pre-trib. I have been waiting 40 years. So, if it doesn’t happen tomorrow, you may have a convert. So, tell me about macron…
I’m guessing you are mocking me there.
God bless.
No I don’t think I am mocking you. I’m just expressing my impatience. Pre-trib is the only belief that makes any sense. Mid and post don’t make any sense. But, I know, it depends on how you were taught. It’s very hard to change someones mind. I had a mid tribber ask me for any scriptures of pre-trib. So I sent him a list of over 100 reasons. Do you think that make a difference? Nah.
Wow, you got back quickly. Thanks.
Does this mean you want to have the conversation?
I wasn’t “taught” by anyone. I started studying end times in 1998. I hadn’t read anyone’s opinion and refused to even use footnotes. The nondenominational church I attended had never even mentioned end-times, let alone the timing of the rapture.
Who taught you, and more importantly, what scripture made you believe in a pretribulation rapture?
Sure. Well, The entire tribulation period is not for the Church. Rev. 4:1 “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.”
That same door does not open again until Rev.19 ” And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.” There is no mention of the Church in between these two verses. The Trib is for Israel.
Ok, so you want me to start here with some major assumptions. First I need to assume these are the same door, and I guess that there is only one door in heaven? Second, this door gets shut and than reopened. Third, that the book of Revelation is written chronologically, and last but not least, this door has something to do with the timing of the rapture.
Let’s say I make the first three major assumptions. Can you explain the fourth, and preferably use scripture?
Sorry, I’ve got to get to work. I’ll give you a couple after you clarify here.
Thanks
Well yes, that’s my points exactly. I hope you’re not going to say that all of my points are subjective and all of your points are objective? I used scripture to show you that between Rev. 4:1 and Rev. 19, the Church is never mentioned.So yes, it has everything to do with the timing of the Rapture. After Rev. 4:1, every scripture has to do with Israel, not the Church. We are in Heaven. Are you familiar with the Jewish Marriage comparisons to the Church, which is His Bride?
So it doesn’t seam odd to you that the word “saint or saints”, is used sixty times in the new testament and is not referring to Israel or the Jews except the eleven times between Revelation 4:1 and 19? If you would like to look it up, it’s Strings # G40 (hagios).
Now let me give you a few that are actually verses referencing the rapture and giving what I refer to as a time stamp.
I’m not going to cut and paste the scripture. Feel free to look up the verses.
1 Cor. 15:50-52 time stamp= last trumpet
Rev. 11:15-18= the last trumpet, Jesus coming, and time for rewarding the prophets and saints who reverence His name.
Daniel 12:1-3=the rapture
Daniel 11:45-12:1= time stamp. The original Hebrew does not have a paragraph brake and new heading here. The “At that time”, is referencing when the a.c. is pitching his tents on the beautiful holy mountain.
Daniel 12:11= the three and a half year reign of the a.c., or 1290 days.
Daniel 12:13= when Daniel is raised-at the end of the 1335 days.
According to Paul in 1Thes.4:13-18 the living shall not proceed the dead.
As long as we’re in 1They.4,note the voice of the archangel and the trumpet call of God.
Notice it’s correlation to Daniel 12:1 and Matt.24:21-31 notice both of these verses reference a time of distress unequaled from the begging of the world.
Jude 9= Michael the archangel
I have more if you can show that these verse support a pre-tribulation rapture or provide a reasonable explanation as to why they don’t reference the rapture..
OK, Well let’s see.. First of all, any Christian is a “saint” and there will be saved Christians during the 7 year trib; so they are called “saints” Those are not the CHURCH SAINTS. Most non pre-tribbers get caught up with that term. Satan will not prevail against the Church, but, he does prevail against those “Saints” Different people.
How do you define, “The Last Trump” Is that part of the 7 trumpets? Before you answer that, you may want to study up on the Feast of Trumpets.
Daniel 12:1-3 So you have the Rapture as the same Day of the Second Coming?
Daniel 11:45-12:1 Not sure what you are trying to prove here.
Daniel 12:13- Here also. what’s your point?
1Thes.4:13-18 is talking about the Rapture.
“As long as we’re in 1They.4,note the voice of the archangel and the trumpet call of God.” Yep, there it is again. Sounds a whole lot like: Revelation 4:1
“Notice it’s correlation to Daniel 12:1 and Matt.24:21-31 notice both of these verses reference a time of distress unequaled from the begging of the world.” Yea, so what? What’s your point? Yes, there will be a tribulation period. We both agree on that. Michael the archangel is the “protector of Israel” Not the Church!
Can you give me your interpretation of Dan: 9:24. Seventy Weeks.
Do have any verses to support the idea that the saints of the tribulation are not part of the church? Are the saints of the tribulation part of the body of the church of which Christ is the head? Colossians 1:18
So I understand you correctly here, when Paul says to the Thessalonians in Thes.4:15, “we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will not proceed those who have fallen asleep”, these are not a part of the “church”? Is Paul part of the “church”? Are the Thessalonians part of the “church”? The argument suggesting the saints in the tribulation are not a part of the church body is absurd.
So let’s say for a second that the rapture takes place before the tribulation. An individual in the tribulation becomes a believer. Is he born again. Does he have the Holy Spirit? If he does during the tribulation, when does he receive his new body? Also, since he is dead after the rapture, didn’t than the living proceed the dead in the resurrection? Doesn’t Paul tells us that the living shall not proceed the dead? Is there a second rapture? A third coming?
You say these saints are different people other that the one theory you have presented with the doors, do have any other scripture to support this?
I’m not sure where you got The last Trump” in Matt.24, Cor. 15, and Rev. 11, all of them say trumpet. Does the last trumpet in Cor. 15 proceed the seven trumpets in revelation and Matt. That almost sounds like a trick question doesn’t it? But really, please explain. Please use scripture not theory. Maybe you can enlighten me on how the “Feast of Trumpets has something to do with the rapture, I haven’t heard that one, and I would like to hear it from you using scripture to make your point.
In regards to Daniel 12:1-3 I I don’t have anything. The bible is quite clear in this passage that the rapture, which it describes in detail, does note take place until the anointed king is pitching his tents on the beautiful holy mountain. What takes place prior to this event? Please read from Daniel 11:21 on.
My point on Daniel 12:13 is that Daniel, who is part of those who have fallen asleep (1Thessalonians 4) does not rise to receive his allotted inheritance until after the 1335 days. What do you believe the times, time, and a half time represent?
So your suggesting that because John heard a voice like a trumpet say “ come up here.” so he could see a vision, that means the rapture takes place at that point and that the book of revelation is all chronological?
Can there be two points in history unequaled from the beginning of the world and never to be equaled again? This is talking about the same event. My point is that in both cases, the gathering of the elect does not take place until after the unequaled distress of those days. Have you noticed that the fourth trumpet in Rev. 8:12 describes the same event as Matt.24:29? Do the elect in Matt.24:30 get gathered from the four winds prior to the fourth trumpet?
I’m not going to get in to something as complex as Daniel 70 weeks when you haven’t yet given me any scripture to support a pretribulation rapture. That one has far less scripture and therefore even more subjective. If you can get me something on the rapture that makes any logical sense, I will be happy to get into my end-times theories, most of which I use scripture to support.
I sorry if you can sense my frustration in this. I do not mean to insult you. I believe you are a brother in Christ, and I earnestly pray that you and your family will lean on the Lord through the storm that’s headed our way.
Yes, I told you that Jesus said that Gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church, but, we do have the Anti-Christ Prevailing against the saints. Can’t be the same. Anyone who understands that the tribulation period is not for the Church, but is the last week of the 70 years, knows that there is no reason for the Church to go through the tribulation. Israel will all be saved during the end of the tribulation period and God will use the 144,000 and the two witnesses for a testimony and way of preaching the Gospel. There will not be millions of Christians who are part of the Church to ba a witness anymore. But, God always provides a witness. The 144,000 and the two wit’s will do just fine. Besides if I go through the tribulation period, I can pretty much tell you the exact date of the Lord’s return. But, scripture says that it will come as a thief in the night. No one will know. Right now, no one knows the date, but, we will, if we go through the trib.
“we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will not proceed those who have fallen asleep”, Where did you get that translation? That’s not what my KJV says. And yes those Christians that are in 1 Thes 4 are part of the church. That is a pre-trib rapture verse. You obviously have a complete misunderstand of that verse. And I mean, COMPLETE MISUNDERSTANDING.
Yes, Paul was definitely part of the Church.
“The argument suggesting the saints in the tribulation are not a part of the church body is absurd.”
That’s because you don’t understand the Wedding. There are invited GUEST to the Wedding. They are not the Church, but they still get the same rewards and get to eat BBQ with Jesus in Heaven at the Wedding Supper of the Lamb.
WOO WOO.. “So let’s say for a second that the rapture takes place before the tribulation. An individual in the tribulation becomes a believer. Is he born again. Does he have the Holy Spirit? If he does during the tribulation, when does he receive his new body? Also, since he is dead after the rapture, didn’t than the living proceed the dead in the resurrection? Doesn’t Paul tells us that the living shall not proceed the dead? Is there a second rapture? A third coming?” Again, you are completely misunderstanding 1 Thes 4.
This verse is simple saying that during the rapture, in an instant in the twinkling of eye, the dead in Christ will be raptured first, then we which are alive and remain, (THE MEMBERS of THE CHURCH” will also raptured probably in a micro second behind the dead in Christ. ) I do a study on this. This use to be number one in the search for the two witnesses. https://www.apocalypsesoon.org/xfile-11.html (Look at number 3)
You say these saints are different people other that the one theory you have presented with the doors, do have any other scripture to support this? I could continue to give you a hundred verses, but, this contention of the saints going through the tribulation, is key to your argument. That’s why you will never be content with anything I say. This contention is practically your entire argument. If you can’t find the Church anywhere in the tribulation period, then you have a big problem. But this word, “saints” is you lifeline to your theory. I understand.
If you don’t understand the Feast of Trumpets, then I understand, your ignorance. You really need to acquaint yourself with this key part of understanding Scripture.
http://www.wor.org/book/3185/the-seven-feasts-of-israel
I think that’s enough for now.
And BTW, Daniel 12:1-3 has nothing to do with the rapture. You are confusing the 2nd coming with the Rapture. The fact that people like you, group the Rapture together with the 2nd coming is why you are so confused.
You avoided answering most of my questions, and didn’t present any scripture supporting your horribly flawed theory of a pretribulation rapture. You did get a few things correct, like know man knows the day and hour of our Lords return, and “that’s enough for now.”
You’re on the correct path with Macron, but since I use scripture and good bible hermeneutics to show it, I’m really not interested in sharing with individuals that use men’s theories rather than scripture to support their eschatology. You’ve left some pretty convincing stuff off your website. Either you just haven’t got around to it, or you haven’t studied your bible well enough.
God bless,
Chris
BTW- 1Thes. 4 does not say,” in an instant in the twinkling of eye, the dead in Christ will be raptured first.” You’re creating your own hybrid verse there from 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thes. 4:16-18. I’m pretty sure I could make Satan Jesus’ brother using the same tactics.
Oh, one more thing. Since you would know what day Jesus is coming back if it weren’t for the rapture, I’m pretty sure you would know what date the rapture is going to take place. Would you mind giving me the date? I’d like to get back to you the following day with a few questions.
It will be exactly 3.5 years after the abomination of desolation.
Personally, as someone with the gift of discernment, i fully recognize your level of debate. Nothing I say is scriptural and only the things that you repeat are scriptural. I know nothing and you know everything. I only need to answer your questions and you have no need to answer my questions. You are self righteous and condescending and I am an idiot. Does that pretty much sum up this discussion?
Not at all. Sorry you feel that way.
I am sure you are a gifted man who loves the Lord and his family. You are most likely exceptionally kind and genuinely care about others. The context of our dialog has been quite specific, and in that area alone, you seemed to not value proper bible hermeneutics. Sorry, that gets me very frustrated.
God bless
I do have to agree with you. Some of my comments were inflammatory and self righteous. Please except my apology. It may be better for me to not debate, in that I get frustrated easily and make some dumb statements. I assure you, this is one of the only issues that inflamed.
If I do have dialog on this subject in the future, I’m going to try to change how I go about it. I’m thinking, one question, one answer. At the least, it met help the conversation to end sooner for all parties involved.
As I have stated many time before, and I mean it whole heartedly,
God Bless, See you in heaven sooner or later!
Be well my brother…